The Ridgeway..

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

I read references to it being the Oldest Pathway in England. But is that true?

What is the latest estimate on it's age (The Pathway)?..

Was it created to 'Service' Avebury or was Avebury built at the end of it?..

I find myself fascinated by the Forrest and the 'part' the Forrest played in the lives of the People who lived in it..

For instance...Should the Ridge way predate Avebury. Be more in line with The WKLB. Then, it would have been a trackway though the Forrest...
There would have been none of the views we know today..

Tony

Guest

"Was it created to 'Service' Avebury or was Avebury built at the end of it?..

Neither tony.

ridgeway history

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Guest

Maybe this
would help, dont have it myself but sounds worth the money.

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Your Right..

For a OS map that's a good price..

Tony

Subject: Re: The Ridgeway.. Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:08 pm

I've always repeated the line that the Ridgeway is the oldest path in Europe - in constant use for over 6,000 years. But other claims to its age vary by several thousand years and over solstice I had a conversation with someone who said its great age is now in doubt. He said some new research implied that it may only be Iron Age or even Dark Age. I never managed to find what this source was, as the conversation was cut short - but it did set me thinking.
The weird thing about the Ridgeway is that is misses every village - they're all at least a couple of miles off the track. Every other ancient path does the opposite, and links villages. The Ridgeway is supposed to be a trade route, for droving animals, but there's no water anywhere near it, apart from dew ponds. It follows the high ground exclusively and the reasons for this are pretty dubious. One reason often quoted is that by taking the highest ground it avoids forested marshy ground. Well I've never seen a marshy forest - the trees either suck up all the moisture (like willows do) or they refuse to grow in such wet ground. You normally either get marsh or forest. In Neolithic times the climate round here was like northern Spain is today - warmer and drier than now. I'd have though that droving animals through forest in such conditions would be a good idea - plenty to eat, for a start! Remember, they had an awful lot of pigs, and chose to eat them rather than the cattle (which seem to have been kept for status).The culture that build such conspicuous monuments as Avebury etc, was obviously secure and confident - they didn't need to sneak around worrying about being attacked by strangers. That came much later - in the Dark Ages. That was the time of building massive defensive structures such as the Wansdyke Path. So it seems that a drovers' track following the high ground would make a lot of sense during the dangerous Dark Ages. All the hill forts on the route are Iron Age!
What's anyone else think? Is there any actual evidence that the Ridgeway is Stone Age?

Joined : 18 Jan 2008 Posts : 32

"Is there any actual evidence that the Ridgeway is Stone Age?"

The Silbury game (maybe)!

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

So,

What's the The Silbury game then.. Dave ???

Tony

Guest

You dont have a copy of the modern antiquarian then tony.
some info

Subject: Re: The Ridgeway.. Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:58 pm

I've got a copy.
Not much of an index, is it?

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Nope...

Fiction.. Is it ???

Tony

scratch

Guest

the game is julians theory about the reason for silbury, or one of them.
basically you can see the top of silbury riding the back (top) of waden for the last few miles down the ridgeway, basically.

Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 471 Location : Wiltshire

Quote: SteveM
"What's anyone else think? Is there any actual evidence that the ridgeway is Stone Age?"

Fascinating question Steve, I hope someone with more knowledge than me answers it.

I have always be puzzled as to why Barbury and Liddington Castles are so close together. Also reading up on a Ridgeway walk I would like to do near Bishopstone - the guide says "This walk follows a line of villages built on the springline where the chalk of the downs ends and the greensand begins ....." I wonder if that implies that the Ridgeway was deliberately made above springlines so that whoever used it would have to travel downhill to settlements along the route. Lots of questions, not many answers as usual for me.

Linking in with the post by Chance earlier, I came across this little extract from Alfred Williams' little book The Villages of the White Horse. It is about Liddington:

The inhabitants are spoken of collectively as "The Liddington Pig-diggers". This came about, in the beginning, through a remark let fall by a rustic about digging for a pig upon the hill-top, which was wrongly received by the hearer, and clownishly construed into meaning that he had actually been digging fo a pig, in the same manner that folks from another village were acredited with having raked after the moon. The true interpretation of the remark is something far differnet. It was an ancient privilege of the parishioners to go upon the downs flint-digging. This they dis in spare time when other work was slack. The flints, when unearthed were sold for road making and repairing, and the money often used to buy a pig for the cottager's sty. Accordingly, it became the fashion, when one was about to go flint-digging, to say he was going to dig for another pig; and so the story became current that pigs were dug out of the flint-beds upon the hill, and villagers were branded with the title of "Pig-diggers".

Subject: Re: The Ridgeway.. Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:38 pm

Great story June!

Guest

I think its totally impossible to date use of the ridgeway, for example you can date its use by the evidence found but a lack of evidence doesnt mean it wasnt used earlier. just my twopenneth.

Subject: Re: The Ridgeway.. Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:31 pm

The other thing is that tracks like the Ridgeway were very wide - up to a mile or so! They were a very general sort of route, rather than a track, in the days before the Enclosures Act. Even aften enclosure (and today) narrower tracks still change direction when they get rutted and overgrown.
There's another great little Shire book - 'Medieval Roads and Tracks' by Paul Hindle. Here's a couple of aerial photos from it, showing some multiple tracks:

And here's one of the track below Adam's Grave, where me & Megadread were, just the other day:

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

If the Trackway existed pre WKLB it would have bee though woodland.

The North Downs Trackway also ancient, runs more or less along the ridge on the hill. But that's now. The oridginal path is lower down the hill. Above the wet ground, but out of the wind. Why travel on a windy exposed ridge line when you can take a far more comfortable route near to water...

Tony

Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 471 Location : Wiltshire

Just returned from another very enjoyable afternoon walking on the downs, which included part of the Ridgeway. Met up with a friend who lives in Wanborough and we walked up to the Ridgeway past a field of blue linseed that looked like lavender from a distance. Skirting fields of wheat - my friend explained the difference in appearance between unripe wheat and barley so I think it is barley growing up by WKLB (not wheat, as I previously said). Being familiar with the landscape, she also pointed out the ancient field systems that are ridged, possibly from run-offs from melting glaciers at the end of the Ice Age.

From our stretch of the Ridgeway we could see the wind turbines that are out near Faringdon and fields of ripening grain blowing like a green sea. We came back via Bishopstone and Hinton Parva. Bishopstone, for anyone who doesn't know, is the prettiest of villages with streams running off the downs into the village pond - we spotted a now rare water vole in one of the streams. A lovely part of Wiltshire which, until today, I had not been very familar with.

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

While you were there...

Did you consider a World of Trees... Nothing to see but Trees... A huge Forrest for as far as the eye could see.. On a distant hill, in a clearing was The WKLB... The rest of the world ( as far as could be seen) was Trees...

Until..

The Windmill hill people and beyond, killed the Trees... Cut them down, tore them down.. Burned then in pit. Destroyed them as they could...

In this world and this time... they would be considered vandals..

Tony

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Guest

EKLB

Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 471 Location : Wiltshire

Guest

I really dont buy into the theory that deforestation started with the megalithic culture, man from the earliest times used timber for all sorts of reasons eg, seasonal housing, for tools, fire etc he would also fell trees around watering holes to gain an advantage in hunting, People used wood to create stock pens where they would keep the prey they caught to fatten them up for the leaner times of the year too.
If we're to believe the archeologists man created clearings enabling them to see certain landscape features that were important to them to.
Even chimps made use of wood as an aid to gathering food.
I just dont buy it. !!

Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 471 Location : Wiltshire

I will readily admit that everyone on this forum knows more about archaeology than me. I just love the Avebury/Wiltshire landscape. So I always come with questions rather than answers - here are a couple of questions about the issue of forestation and when the clearing started.

I am puzzled about how all the sarsens around Avebury, especially the 'sarsen drift' valley at Pigglesdene were scattered so very widely if the land was forested.

Also, on my walk yesterday near the Ridgeway in north Wiltshire, walking through the Coombes near Hinton Parva, there were deep gulleys between the fields with ridged banks. My friend said they may have been formed by the run-off of water from glacial melt. So was the land forested after the Ice Age and if so, then maybe some of it stayed 'cleared'.

This is a genuine question so if the answer is an obvious one, please bear with me. Whilst this forum is a lot of fun most of the time, I am here to learn.

Guest

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 471 Location : Wiltshire

Just popping in quickly to say thanks for the replies to both George and Tony. I love walking on the Ridgeway almost with a passion - when I first went up there a few years back I was shocked by the deep ruts in the section leading to Waylands Smithy and wrote several letters to newspapers to get 4x4s banned - which I think has now happened (from that section anyway). We did see one yesterday though - the driver had a dog in the back and was driving quite slowly. I did suggest blocking his progress but my friend said 'best not, its alot bigger than us'.

There obviously aren't enough roads in the land for these people?

Guest

Excuse my french but i hate these selfish bas tards, some of my favourite walks in the peak district have had the paths completely ruined by these subhuman morons. Ive seen the repair teams struggle to get up to some of the worst affected areas. Grrrr Evil or Very Mad

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 471 Location : Wiltshire

Thanks for your comments Tony. In this instance I wasn't talking about motorways but specifically the Ridgeway. Megadread's Youtube clip, though not the Ridgeway, illustrates the damage 4x4s do to such tracks. Last autumn I walked a section of the Wansdyke with a walking group - on our way up, while we were walking the track from East Kennet we were passed by a convoy of 4x4s out on a rally and heading towards the Ridgeway. They were all courteous and polite as they drove by but I couldn't bring myself to return the courtesy as they (and others before them) had churned the trackway up to such an extent it was almost unwalkable and on one stretch it was so bad we had to leave the track and pick our way through some copse.

I agree with you about trees ameliorating the effect of dual carriageways and motorways. There is a newish hospital on the edge of Swindon by Junction 15 (handy for pile-ups) the grounds of the parking area have been landscaped with trees and wild flowers sown in the grassy bits - really quite lovely. There is also a small lake where a pair of mating swans have made their home for the past few years - only this year there are cygnets and only one parent swan; the male swan was hit by a car. (Nothing to do with the Ridgeway, just thought I'd mention it).

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

My purpose was to show how quickly a Forrest grows...

There has to be serious reasons for it not to

There is nothing to suggest the ridgeway was other than a trackway through a Forrest... Well, in the beginning anyway... Thats until they cut the Trees down..

Tony

Subject: Re: The Ridgeway.. Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:47 pm

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

June said...

Beautiful picture Tony, I love the green water (and the swan of course).

I've just been reading up on Wanborough (where I started my walk the other day). Alfred Williams gives such a lot of information in his little book Villages of the White Horse [first published 1913]. I'm sure you all know that Wanborough was an important Roman town as was the last settlement on Ermin Street before the Ridgeway. Several roads led to Wanborough - here's what AW says about the Ridgeway .... (he writes very long sentences)

"The oldest and most famed of these roads is the Ridgeway. This is an ancient British track, from ten to fifteen yards wide, bordered with banks and ridges, leading from Avebury, and running along the tops of the downs, first connecting the chain of camps or 'castles' from Barbury to Uffington, and then stretching away towards Streatly and Reading. In the early days it was a military road, along which the fierce warriors passed and repassed, the victors and the vanquished, the proud conquerors, chanting and singing their battle-songs, or the demoralized mob, fleeeing pellmell from their pursuers; in more recent times it was used by smugglers to convey their contraband out away from the towns and villages, and conceal it in the woods about the downs, and also by the Welsh drovers, who brought their herds along Ermin Street and then passed by the Ridgeway - thereby escaping the charge of the toll-gates - and wandered leisurely towards their destination, grazing their cattle on the pasture of the hillside; Below, in the valley, and running parallel with the Ridgeway, is another old track called 'Pilgrim's Path' but this has been cut off, and enclosed in meadowlands in so many places, that it is impossible to follow for any distance."

AW goes on to say "that the village of Wanborough is one of the most ancient in the whole island. Long before Roman times it was a hilltop settlement looking to the west over Swindon, which was probably a fortified camp ages before the one contructed on Liddington hill opposite. Here, according to a well-maintained tradition stood an old heathen temple, used by Sun-worshippers; and here, on the identical site, stands the grey old church today

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Thanks for the coments June..

I should have spent a little more time on lightening the head and neck and darkening the the white 'burn out' on it's wings though... Unfortunately I don't have a picture more in tune with the subject (Avebury)...

It's interesting that there was another trackway at the bottom of the Valley known as the Pilgrims Path. Kind of reminiscent of the North Downs with the Pilgrims Way running close to the valley bottom (The route to Canterbury) This trackway is described as being a more convenient route than the ridge, as it's protect from the wind and above the wet valley bottom. (After deforestation perhaps)..

Tony

Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 471 Location : Wiltshire

I followed your instructions from the orchid topic Tony and seem to have got over my mental block about posting pictures - many thanks (but I won't get carried away).

Just for practice, here is a picture of the ancient field system on my way up to the Ridgeway the other day, known as the Coombs. I think the blue crop is linseed which looked a bit like a lake.

[img][/img]

Guest

I remember the first time i saw the manger, i just stood and stared for about 10 minutes, nature at its most powerful, wow. !!!

Subject: Re: The Ridgeway.. Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:53 am

I have a few books about the Ridgeway – the best is ‘The Oldest Road: The Ridgeway’ by JRL Anderson, with lovely black and white photos by Fay Godwin. It was first published in 1975 but I have a 1992 reprint. It’s worth looking out for second-hand on Amazon (available from three quid!).

Some bits are worth quoting:-
“Roads are the most enduring works of man. Partly, of course, they are works of nature, because man, with all other animals, seeks the easiest path to get where he wants to go, and the best route over or round hills, across rivers, or through jungles is determined by the structure of the land. Sheep-paths on a hillside follow the ledges of natural contours; the track to a water-hole runs where no rocks or great trees stand in the way. Once trodden by human feet, a natural path becomes a work of man, each traveller marking the way for the next, sometimes departing from the most direct or obvious route to avoid a muddy patch, or to keep out of sight of possible enemies. Feet follow footsteps, and so a road is trodden into history.”

He goes on to compare the Ridgeway to India’s Khyber Pass: since pre-history, both tracks have brought wave after wave of invaders.

“Strictly, I do not think that the route beyond the Thames can properly be called the Ridgeway: that is the oldest route of all, following the high ground above the spring-line, where prehistoric man could travel in relatively open country, above the dangers that lurked in the thickly wooded lower slopes, and in the valleys. The Icknield Way, still a chalk route, runs more nearly on the spring-line, more convenient in giving travellers access to water; it cam into use later, when there were fewer dangers from wolves and other wild animals in the woods. But it is very old, and, oddly, this newer road has an older name than the more ancient route. The Ridgeway is just what its name implies in modern English, and it gets its name from the Anglo-Saxon ‘hrycg, meaning ‘ridge’. Icknield is a name so old that it has no known root, and must embody some word from the forgotten tongue of unknown ancestors. Across the Thames the Icknield Way certainly became a continuation of the Ridgeway, providing a road across England from the south-western shores of the Channel to the North Sea.”

The Icknield Way has its own website:

Icknield Way

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

[quote="june"]I followed your instructions from the orchid topic Tony and seem to have got over my mental block about posting pictures - many thanks (but I won't get carried away).

Just for practice, here is a picture of the ancient field system on my way up to the Ridgeway the other day, known as the Coombs. I think the blue crop is linseed which looked a bit like a lake.

quote]

Very nice view June. The linseed looks wonderful...

Your picture is a tad large for a forum. Go back to Photobucket and double left click on the picture. When it opens, use the Resize tab to adjust to 640x458.....

Or you can use the Edit tab.. but that is a bit "long winded" for a simple reize...

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 471 Location : Wiltshire

Thanks Tony, I can see what I have done, I will go in and re-post it in a smaller size this evening (I do get carried away sometimes and miss details).

I found your post very interesting Steve and will re-read it when I'm not having a working lunch, fielding calls ect (the bread, cheese and rocket was very nice though).

Back to work proper now.

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey