Meaning of the Font

Subject: Meaning of the Font Wed May 14, 2008 11:21 pm

Anyone have an opinion on what this carving on the font means?

I have read a few things but there is much to explore.

Here is a link to a much higher res photo to see more details.
Church Font
PeteG
(Tony - Photomatrix Pro has an update out to go to V3.1)
(Update)

Joined : 05 Apr 2008 Posts : 74

That looks like the font at Chute church...

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Wed May 14, 2008 11:50 pm

do you have a photo of that one?
This one is in St James' Avebury.
PeteG

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 471 Location : Wiltshire

Its a beautiful font and St James' is somewhere I wander into from time to time. It is a church with a peaceful atmosphere.

The font is similar to the one in Terence Meaden's book that is in the church at Winterbourne Monkton. He says that one is 12th century and has a naked fertility goddes engraved on one side - I guess the fonts are of similar ages and possibly constructed by the same stone masons of the time. Very interesting !

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Thu May 15, 2008 6:26 pm

It is said to be a 12C Bishop who is standing on the heads of two dragons to represent Xtianity overcoming Paganism.
However.
The dragon on the left has its head pierced by the crosier but the dragon on the right is biting the Bishops foot!?
PeteG

Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 471 Location : Wiltshire

Just learnt a little bit more - fascinating as ever.

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Thu May 15, 2008 7:54 pm

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Thu May 15, 2008 7:58 pm

"So it isn't Noggin the Nog after all, then?"

Is that still legal?

pale

PeteG

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Thu May 15, 2008 8:11 pm

Hahaha!

It was banned along with Muffin the Mule.

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Thu May 15, 2008 9:24 pm

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Thu May 15, 2008 9:52 pm

I was hoping BB would jump in with some comments as he told me a few interesting things about this font when I took this photo but as usual I wasn't paying attention tongue

In the Bishops left hand he is holding a cup.
Why?
Surely he wasn't having a pint while spearing a dragon?
PeteG

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Thu May 15, 2008 10:09 pm

an interesting aside.
The tomb stone on the right of the font in the photo is that of none other than Farmer Richard Green the stone breaker!
PeteG

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

I found this... True or not. I found it interesting..

We ave a legless bishop..

http://ben-fairhall.com/?cat=19

Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 471 Location : Wiltshire

Joined : 19 Jan 2008 Posts : 215

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

[quote="june"]

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Fri May 16, 2008 9:21 pm

The Abraxas link is one of the most interesting things I've seen for ages!
Good forum this, isn't it?

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Fri May 16, 2008 10:40 pm

After examining Pete's excellent high-res picture of the font, I would suggest that the figure is kneeling in piety - and that it's supposed to depict St Patrick (who was a bishop) banning the snakes from Ireland.

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Fri May 16, 2008 10:42 pm

Steve,
Thats a good theory, I like it.
Stukeley claimed that no snakes live in Avebury but I know of someone who got bittten by an adder while working on a wall in the high st a few years back.

Have you experimented with HDR images yet?
PeteG

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Fri May 16, 2008 11:00 pm

Yatesbury is notorious locally for snakes, and it's only 3 miles away. Never seen an adder here but seen several Grass Snakes and rather a lot of Slow Worms. There are often dead ones on the roads.

HDR - seen it, but not had a go yet.

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Fri May 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Fri May 16, 2008 11:06 pm

It's interesting that the Avebury Church is dedicated to Saint James.
St James was the son of Zebedee (I can't help but to think of Calne motor dealers - Zebedee & Powney!)
His mother was Salome, but not the head-on-a-plate one.

James' body is alleged to be buried at Santiago de Compostela - 3rd holiest town of Catholicism after Jerusalem & Rome, so he was a top saint.

But bearing in mind the location of this particular church:
St James was preaching in Spain when the Virgin Mary appeared to him on a stone pillar (hmmm...)

He was decapitated in Jerusalem by Herod Agrippa; his body was taken up by angels and sailed in a rudderless boat to Spain, where a massive rock closed around his relics.(hmmm!)

I can't think of any other Christian Saints that are connected with pillars or massive rocks, so it seems quite appropriate to dedicate the Avebury church to St James!

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Fri May 16, 2008 11:12 pm

I believe it used to be an All Saints church before it became St James.
PeteG

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Fri May 16, 2008 11:19 pm

Good band - Shaznay's an excellent songwriter!

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Fri May 16, 2008 11:25 pm

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

"is kneeling in piety"

I like that, t makes sense.

I do believe the creatures are dragons though. You can see their shoulders and wings and both have feet. They are both biting the hem of his skirt. Possibly this indicates temptation? The crosier held over the head of one dragon possibly indicates that he is above temptation and the anointing cup means that he is in the presence of God...

The Crosier is indicative of a Bishop.

Too many 'Possibly' for my liking, but...

Joined : 19 Jan 2008 Posts : 215

It is cup final day, and at Wembley stadium the cup will take pride of place, but it wasn't made there!

Nor when it was made had the cup any connection with Wembley or the stadium.

No-one thinks of the 'Elgin' marbles being made for the British Museum, and yet the font was made for Avebury?

As Bernard Crick says of George Orwell, people get to know him in reverse (by reading the books he wrote last), and perhaps not at all by only reading those books alone, so we might reflect that those that focus on the image alone do not get to know the font of St James Avebury.

Take a torch next time you go to look at the font, look at the stone, look at the wear, look at the damage - it has been moved in more recent times but was it also transported long long ago?

Joined : 19 Jan 2008 Posts : 215

Pete's photograph shows some of the damage, bottom left. It has been rolled on its rim as you might see a drayman move a beer barrel.

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Joined : 19 Jan 2008 Posts : 215

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Sun May 18, 2008 12:28 am

Church Font

if you click and drag within the image you can spin it around to see the font from all sides.
You can zoom in also.
(Apple Quicktime needed)
PeteG

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Interesting stuff..

St James has a Root Loft which was hidden. Logic says they would have hidden the Font also...

The Font it'self....

Top of my head... It doesn't look like a front. It would hold a lot of water (unless there is a shallow bowl within)....

The Staple is in a most strange place, right in the Bishops face. A channel is cut above his head and the engravings ..Hmmmmm..

Something is missing. Water would have flowed out of that grove and down the face and the face does show that kind of wear... But not below it.. possibly indicating it was channeled off..

Gut reaction.. It's a medieval water butt. Possibly from Marlborough Castle...

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Regardless of whether some of the above is correct or not..

It does add another piece to the jigsaw puzzle.

We have a christianized populous that is hiding it's beloved sacred objects. And no doubt continuing with their ceremonies in secret...

It seems that Christianity (Catholic) was a very popular religion. Not something that had been forced on the population.

Joined : 19 Jan 2008 Posts : 215

Just corrected my entry above to point out that Eamon Duffy, The Stripping of the Altars : traditional religion in England 1400-1580 (Yale 1992) is worth a read, but hasn't much in there about fonts.

The hiding of the Rood screen story at Avebury was encouraged by the architects of the church makeover in Gothic and by Avebury's vicar the Revd Bryan King 1812-1895 who led tirades about Henry VIII and his "vandals" and who only came to Avebury as a result of the most infamous series of disturbances in church history caused by his adoption of a High Church surplice and a ritual in his previous parish in St George-in-the-east. This saw the congregation pelt and jeer at the cleric during services and in the street with the congregation swelled by large numbers wishing to witness the anarchy featured in press reports, services became so riotous it led to the closure of the church for a sustained period. King transferred to Avebury and all but ended his days as Rector of St James 1859-1894. His successor was his son Gilbert, who had acted as Curate since 1885. Hence the Rood Screen being hidden story, which was used to justify such as King's adoption of ritual and surplice, remaining unchallenged despite it not being based on any evidence only anecdotal interpretation of why it had been recycled.

King however did tip off Sir John Lubbock to buy Silbury Hill and parts of Avebury threatened by developers.

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Sun May 18, 2008 5:54 pm

Going back to St Patrick (I've been away!):
I've been searching around the net and have come across several references to St Patrick banishing the snakes and the dragons from Ireland! Nothing specific though - can't find a source. There does seem to be a traditional confusion between dragons and snakes, though.
I now agree with Tony, by the way, that the font depicts dragons, not snakes!

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Sun May 18, 2008 6:56 pm

Joined : 18 Jan 2008 Posts : 154

The history of dragons is another fascinating subject all of its own, but suffice it to say that serpents, snakes and dragons are very closely related in historical texts. If you think about it I suppose a dragon could be a giant serpent with wings.....

Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 471 Location : Wiltshire

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Sun May 18, 2008 10:09 pm

I looked up the Avebury font in some of my books tonight. Pevsner says:-
‘FONT. Norman, of cylindrical shape. The bottom third has interspersed arches. Above big scrolls and also two big serpents with twisted tails, their heads turned towards the figure of a saintly bishop holding a crozier. His pleated cassock is a typically Norman feature.’

There’s a brilliant little book by Shire – Shire Album 318 ‘Church Fonts’ by Norman Pounds (ISBN 0-7478-0293-9) Highly recommended. Avebury is in it and the frontispiece is of a similar Norman font in Humberside:

Here’s the page with Avebury:

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Sun May 18, 2008 10:14 pm

what type of stone is it?
I assume its not sarsen...
PeteG

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Sun May 18, 2008 10:21 pm

I've always been fascinated by fonts.
My favourite is in Cornwall at Lostwithiel which has this crazy chap on it

from the side it looks like this

which has a Bishop on a donkey which is kicking a pig
and a Dragon riding on the back of a Donkey.
On the other side it has a donkey biting the ass of another donkey while standing on bats!
What the Hell is that all about?

PeteG

Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 471 Location : Wiltshire

That's a very comical font Pete. The head looks as though it has a labyrinth on it. I wonder if its a reference to 'The Mysteries' and hidden symbolism of the gnostics or even pre-christian paganism. I've just started re-reading The Jesus Mysteries which I mentioned earlier and am currently on a chapter called Encoded Secret Teachings.

I have to admit I know little about fonts as avoided going into churches until quite recently, when I started looking at the link between old churches and wells/springs. This is an intriguing subject - the pages from Steve's Norman Pounds book are fascinating as well. Fascinating seems to be a word I use a lot on this forum.

By the way, re: a different topic - I thought I'd be nice to some nettles today and ran my hand over them - it still bl**dy stings. geek

Subject: Re: Meaning of the Font Sun May 18, 2008 11:34 pm

Hi June,
the Lostwithiel font is said to be a Node where the Mary & Micheal leylines meet (if you Believe that sort of thing)
He has a double spiral on his forehead and a serpent on his crown.
It is a very strange font indeed.
PeteG
Ps. Only touch nettles with flowers on, they don't sting.

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

From the comfort of my Computer chair, the font appears to be in better condition on the back than the front. Can anybody confirm That?.

The channel above the head appears to have raised edges that create a spout. Can anybody confirm that?.

Any ideas about the staple?.

Saints - The Romans had theirs as did the Saxons. Any ideas which saints the Norman and Norman/English favored?.