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Guest
Guest
|  Subject: Avenue query .  Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:53 pm | |
| Recent mention of the avenue encouraged a "virtual" look at the section to the west of the B4003 where it shifts slightly further SW .I calculated that it is orientated just to the west of the westerly boundary stones on Lurkeley Hill .If this is the case it would mean that the winter major standstill moon would rise at that spot framed by the avenue . My question for you locals is , is that particular bit of the hill visible from that point of the avenue at SU 10551 69517 ? And if it has been mentioned elsewhere please ignore .
George |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:22 pm | |
| I can't get my head around this.
What Boundary stones on Lurkeley hill?
PeteG |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:36 pm | |
| | PeteG wrote: | I can't get my head around this.
What Boundary stones on Lurkeley hill?
PeteG |
There is one at SU 12523 66554 and another about 350m to the south at the edge of a line of trees which may be visible from the avenue .The boundary is probably that between East Kennet parish and West Overton .
George |
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Steve M
Joined : 05 Jan 2008
Posts : 502
Location : Yatesbury, Wiltshire
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:16 pm | |
| I'm confused by this too!
You mention alignments to the 'winter major standstill moon' - but the standstills are part of an 18.6 year cycle. Every 19 years there's a major and a minor standstill. Each has a maximum northerly and a southerly position. |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:31 pm | |
| | Steve M wrote: | I'm confused by this too!
You mention alignments to the 'winter major standstill moon' - but the standstills are part of an 18.6 year cycle. Every 19 years there's a major and a minor standstill. Each has a maximum northerly and a southerly position. |
The winter major standstill moon refers to the extreme point of the 18.6 year cycle .
It now looks like the section of the avenue starting at Beckhampton Rd is aligned and up to the point where it changes direction could point to the minor standtill and Bitham Barrow .If that is not clear do ask and I'll clarify .
In effect the northern part of the avenue is oriented to the southern minor lunar standstill which will occur close to Bitham Barrow as seen from the avenue , the avenue then takes a change in direction and points to the major minor standstill rise .This is all predicated on the the two spots being visble from the avenue ,hence the original question . It may well be a lot of ****** or been in the public domain for decades . If anyone needs figures I'll post them but decided aginst as azis and decs cause eye glazing and are not recommended on non astro forums .
George |
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Steve M
Joined : 05 Jan 2008
Posts : 502
Location : Yatesbury, Wiltshire
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:01 pm | |
| | tiompan wrote: | | PeteG wrote: | I can't get my head around this.
What Boundary stones on Lurkeley hill?
PeteG |
There is one at SU 12523 66554 and another about 350m to the south at the edge of a line of trees which may be visible from the avenue .The boundary is probably that between East Kennet parish and West Overton .
George |
I see them marked on the OS map now. Has anyone seen if they're actually there? |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:07 pm | |
| | Steve M wrote: | | tiompan wrote: | | PeteG wrote: | I can't get my head around this.
What Boundary stones on Lurkeley hill?
PeteG |
There is one at SU 12523 66554 and another about 350m to the south at the edge of a line of trees which may be visible from the avenue .The boundary is probably that between East Kennet parish and West Overton .
George |
I see them marked on the OS map now. Has anyone seen if they're actually there? |
They won't be big, purely march stones ,can't see them google earth .I mentioned them as a guide not part of the orientation .
George |
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Steve M
Joined : 05 Jan 2008
Posts : 502
Location : Yatesbury, Wiltshire
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:26 pm | |
| | George - if you want, I'll pop down to the avenue and have a butchers - it's only 10 mins away. If you give me a grid ref for the viewing position, and a compass direction to look in, I can always take a photo! |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:05 pm | |
| | Steve M wrote: | | George - if you want, I'll pop down to the avenue and have a butchers - it's only 10 mins away. If you give me a grid ref for the viewing position, and a compass direction to look in, I can always take a photo! |
Thanks Steve , no rush ,it can be done anytime .The one closest to Avebury is SU 10341 69569 and the next just after the dog-leg = SU 10551 69517 .But anywhere between the stones on either stretch although the second section is easier being longer and straighter .
Thanks again , George |
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Steve M
Joined : 05 Jan 2008
Posts : 502
Location : Yatesbury, Wiltshire
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:53 pm | |
| I've got very interested in this, so I went down to the Avenue at 8pm. It's been a horrible day though, and it was almost dark! All the photos here are taken facing the same direction - looking SE down the West Kennet Avenue, away from Avebury.
As well as the OS refs I've used Keiller's map of the restored Avenue - available from this website, by kind permission of Pete Admin: AVENUE MAP
I started at position SU 10551 69517 - between the pair of stones no. 27 and took this shot with my lens zoomed in to the target spot on the horizon. The pair of standing stones in shot is no. 26. In the murky light I was guessing a bit, but I did take a compass bearing too. The red arrow shows roughly the point we're looking for:
Here's a wide shot from the same place:
Then I moved north, to position SU 10341 69596 and took a shot from between the stones of pair 12. Pair 13 are standing, and in shot. The bit of horizon we're interested in is still visible, but only just:
I then moved on north a bit, and realised for the first time what a difference the incline makes to the horizon view. From anywhere further north than pair 11, the southern horizon is not visible:
Moving south from the Avebury Henge, the ground level actually rises, so the southern horizon is not visible until midway between pairs 11 and 12. The standing pair in shot is pair 13:
This is from a bit further south:
So you see that moving down the Avenue away from Avebury, pair 13 is on the highest point. After that, the ground slopes away steadily to the south, giving an uninterrupted view of the horizon.
I took a final shot from the southern end of the restored section - between pair 33. It looks like a decent alignment to me:
This is all very interesting George - thanks for bringing it up. I'm going to go back soon in better light and spend more time finding the exact point on the horizon. I hope this helps for now, at least. |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:06 pm | |
| | Steve M wrote: | I've got very interested in this, so I went down to the Avenue at 8pm. It's been a horrible day though, and it was almost dark! All the photos here are taken facing the same direction - looking SE down the West Kennet Avenue, away from Avebury.
As well as the OS refs I've used Keiller's map of the restored Avenue - available from this website, by kind permission of Pete Admin: AVENUE MAP
I started at position SU 10551 69517 - between the pair of stones no. 27 and took this shot with my lens zoomed in to the target spot on the horizon. The pair of standing stones in shot is no. 26. In the murky light I was guessing a bit, but I did take a compass bearing too. The red arrow shows roughly the point we're looking for:
Here's a wide shot from the same place:
Then I moved north, to position SU 10341 69596 and took a shot from between the stones of pair 12. Pair 13 are standing, and in shot. The bit of horizon we're interested in is still visible, but only just:
I then moved on north a bit, and realised for the first time what a difference the incline makes to the horizon view. From anywhere further north than pair 11, the southern horizon is not visible:
Moving south from the Avebury Henge, the ground level actually rises, so the southern horizon is not visible until midway between pairs 11 and 12. The standing pair in shot is pair 13:
This is from a bit further south:
So you see that moving down the Avenue away from Avebury, pair 13 is on the highest point. After that, the ground slopes away steadily to the south, giving an uninterrupted view of the horizon.
I took a final shot from the southern end of the restored section - between pair 33. It looks like a decent alignment to me:
This is all very interesting George - thanks for bringing it up. I'm going to go back soon in better light and spend more time finding the exact point on the horizon. I hope this helps for now, at least. |
That's brilliant Steve thanks very much . I'll have a good look at the pics now . I havn't managed to find any previous mentions of it ,yet .
George |
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Steve M
Joined : 05 Jan 2008
Posts : 502
Location : Yatesbury, Wiltshire
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:20 pm | |
| | Cheers George - it may be a good idea to delete that last post of yours, as it put all the photos up again! |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:25 pm | |
| I have a few niggling doubts about this.
It would be interesting to take photos at each pair all along the avenue and look for distant alignments.
Just picking a few that point in a general direction doesn't feel right to me.
PeteG |
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Steve M
Joined : 05 Jan 2008
Posts : 502
Location : Yatesbury, Wiltshire
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:32 pm | |
| I agree Pete - but it just wasn't light enough to do anymore. The only one that looks like an actual alignment to me is the last one. But that's just the end of the restored section - after that I think the Avenue veers away to the east.
There's a more significant point here, I think - the way that the horizon is hidden, then appears. If we're assuming that horizon astronomy was important to the builders, then there's something worth investigating here. |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:46 pm | |
| yes I agree Steve.
I'll have to take you to a barrow group to show you a remarkable horizon Silbury event sometime.
PeteG |
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Steve M
Joined : 05 Jan 2008
Posts : 502
Location : Yatesbury, Wiltshire
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:53 pm | |
| Certainly - very soon!
It's interesting the way that round barrows have changed their importance - not so long ago they were a bit sniffed at, as being made by some later culture to the long barrows and circles etc Now they seem to be regarded more as a continuation of the same culture. Is that fair? |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:54 pm | |
| I have looked into the moonrise along the avenue before.
It has the reverse of what Devereaux talks about the double sunrise on Silbury.
You can get double or triple moonrises along the avenue.
PeteG |
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Steve M
Joined : 05 Jan 2008
Posts : 502
Location : Yatesbury, Wiltshire
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:58 pm | |
| | But when moonrises are spread over such a wide range, how can you tell? I've really noticed this year that we're seeing a huge range of moonrise positions, as the legacy of the standstill. |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:58 pm | |
| | Steve M wrote: | Certainly - very soon!
It's interesting the way that round barrows have changed their importance - not so long ago they were a bit sniffed at, as being made by some later culture to the long barrows and circles etc Now they seem to be regarded more as a continuation of the same culture. Is that fair? |
I get niggles about little things.
Why is there a barrow along the Ridgeay that has no tree's?
Why does that barrow in that group stand away from the others? etc.
It was while stomping around a barrow groups that I spotted the Silbury horizon effect.
I'm forever asking akward questions....
PeteG
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:00 pm | |
| unfortunatley the weather is not the same as it was during the Hypsithermal period so we don't get to see every full moon now.
I wanted to get the full moonrise with Jupiter this week but its the middle of the british summer so no chance...
PeteG |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:24 pm | |
| | PeteG wrote: | I have a few niggling doubts about this.
It would be interesting to take photos at each pair all along the avenue and look for distant alignments.
Just picking a few that point in a general direction doesn't feel right to me.
PeteG |
Similar to the Stonehenge avenue there are straight sections .Two of the straight sections which make up the avenue are are stones 6-17 and 22-37 , .Both are 250 m but the second may have continued for much longer as the orientation is to the two stones by the road just north west of West Kennet .They are aligned on different parts of the horizon one of which has a bowl barrow the spot on the horizon both point to is where the winter major standstill moon will rise and where the winter minor standstill rise . Unlike a single standing stone being aligned on an important event an avenue shows much greater intentionality just as a passage in a passage grave would .It will need firming up and I can't imagine it never having been noted before . Steve's pics will help . The Keiller plan isn't much use for checking azimuths as like most archaeo plans it doesn't say what kind of northing is used and so often they are inaccurate .
George
Last edited by tiompan on Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:27 pm | |
| Geroge,
I seem to recall that Bitham Barrow was Saxon (BB will corect if I'm wrong)
so I don't include it as an alignment anymore.
PeteG |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:30 pm | |
| | PeteG wrote: | Geroge,
I seem to recall that Bitham Barrow was Saxon (BB will corect if I'm wrong)
so I don't include it as an alignment anymore.
PeteG |
O.k. no icing on the cake . I saw it as undated on the Withshire doodah .
George |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:34 pm | |
| | Steve M wrote: | | Cheers George - it may be a good idea to delete that last post of yours, as it put all the photos up again! |
How do I do that ?
George |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:35 pm | |
| its difficult trying to peel away the layers of history around here.
At least we don't fall into the layline trap.
A church - A tree - A pond - A barrow - A stone...etc
PeteG |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:36 pm | |
| | tiompan wrote: | | Steve M wrote: | | Cheers George - it may be a good idea to delete that last post of yours, as it put all the photos up again! |
How do I do that ?
George |
you have option to edit your own posts (top right)
PeteG |
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Steve M
Joined : 05 Jan 2008
Posts : 502
Location : Yatesbury, Wiltshire
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:41 pm | |
| I recall that earlier this evening, Tiompan's post mentioned the standstill moonrise being 'framed' by the Avenue. This just doesn't happen. Although I'd never noticed it before, the southern horizon is not 'framed' by the Avenue stones at all - they're too low down. The southward slope across the whole site means that the southern horizon appears to sit very high - the stones seem quite insignificant by comparison.
Last edited by Steve M on Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:46 pm | |
| | PeteG wrote: | | tiompan wrote: | | Steve M wrote: | | Cheers George - it may be a good idea to delete that last post of yours, as it put all the photos up again! |
How do I do that ?
George |
you have option to edit your own posts (top right)
PeteG |
Found lots of options but no delete , tried selecting text then deleting still didn't seem to work .
George |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:47 pm | |
| next to the Edit button is a X in a grey box
PeteG |
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Steve M
Joined : 05 Jan 2008
Posts : 502
Location : Yatesbury, Wiltshire
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:47 pm | |
| | Except it isn't - today... |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:48 pm | |
| | Steve M wrote: | | I recall that earlier this evening, Tiompan's post mentioned the standstill moonrise being 'framed' by the Avenue. This just doesn't happen. Although I'd never noticed it before, the southern horizon is not 'framed' by the Avenue stones at all - they're too low down. The southward slope across the whole site means that the southern horizon appears to sit very high - the stones seem quite insignificant by comparison. |
Sorry ,I shouldn't have said framed (loaded term ) the orientation of the stones might be better .
George |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:49 pm | |
| Bummin Ell Steve whotcha done?
It was there a minute ago!
PeteG
it only seems to be available on your last post. strange.... |
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Steve M
Joined : 05 Jan 2008
Posts : 502
Location : Yatesbury, Wiltshire
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:52 pm | |
| My god! It's nearly tomorrow...
I'm off to bed. |
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megadread
Joined : 12 Jul 2008
Posts : 321
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:58 pm | |
| Some real interesting post here, pity george made it cost 3000 quid to load.  |
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megadread
Joined : 12 Jul 2008
Posts : 321
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:00 am | |
| | Steve M wrote: | My god! It's nearly tomorrow...
I'm off to bed. |
'Packs away recently bought telescope for winter use'. |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:01 am | |
| | PeteG wrote: | its difficult trying to peel away the layers of history around here.
At least we don't fall into the layline trap.
A church - A tree - A pond - A barrow - A stone...etc
PeteG |
My thinking was that the barrow was a bowl barrow as mentioned on the web site ( I think ) hence possibly contemporaneous . Cursus are very often aligned on barrows as are avenues in most cases it is likely the barrow is primary ,it does belong to a tradition rather than just being fortuitous The difference between a possible alignment like those mentioned and a ley line is that that there is a definite orientation i.e. the avenue and that also points to an important astronomical event that we know the builders of the avenue would almost certainly be aware of .Ley lines just include anything that lines up that happens to be older than the ley liner .
I'll try again tomorrow and see if the X has reappeared , probably something to do with crop circles .
George |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:02 am | |
| | megadread wrote: | | Some real interesting post here, pity george made it cost 3000 quid to load. |
ooooooooooops |
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megadread
Joined : 12 Jul 2008
Posts : 321
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:04 am | |
| | Barrows before cursii. is the lager i consumed affecting my chronology. ? |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:09 am | |
| there are longbarrows at the end of the Stonehenge cursus and another in Dorset.
PeteG |
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megadread
Joined : 12 Jul 2008
Posts : 321
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:11 am | |
| | Ah, long barrows. You must really be more specific when dealing with idiots like me. !!! |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:12 am | |
| | tiompan wrote: |
My thinking was that the barrow was a bowl barrow as mentioned on the web site ( I think ) hence possibly contemporaneous .
George |
There is a Barrow in the thin strip of woods not marked on most maps near Bitham.
There are Stunning views from that spot towards Silbury.
I must post a pano one of these days.
PeteG |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:14 am | |
| | megadread wrote: | | Ah, long barrows. You must really be more specific when dealing with idiots like me. !!! |
but then again there is a round barrow inside the stonehenge cursus at the other end.
Ever get the feeling that neolithic man eat some mushrooms and said "Lets screw with our decendants heads and build meaningless sh1t all over the place!"
PeteG |
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megadread
Joined : 12 Jul 2008
Posts : 321
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:16 am | |
| | Has mr Carling and co affected me over the years more than i realise or were the first burial structures long barrows followed by round barrows, eg pond, bowl etc........Hic..! |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:18 am | |
| | megadread wrote: | | Has mr Carling and co affected me over the years more than i realise or were the first burial structures long barrows followed by round barrows, eg pond, bowl etc........Hic..! |
thats about right except there are some round barrows with no burials (mounts) that are undatable so could be the same age as long barrows.
PeteG |
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megadread
Joined : 12 Jul 2008
Posts : 321
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:25 am | |
| | PeteG wrote: | | megadread wrote: | | Has mr Carling and co affected me over the years more than i realise or were the first burial structures long barrows followed by round barrows, eg pond, bowl etc........Hic..! |
thats about right except there are some round barrows with no burials (mounts) that are undatable so could be the same age as long barrows.
PeteG |
Im no expert and quite drunk but i'd be truly amazed to find any circular barrows contemporary with cursi. |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:28 am | |
| ah! I didn't say it was Contemporary only Inside the cursus.
PeteG |
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megadread
Joined : 12 Jul 2008
Posts : 321
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:35 am | |
| | Ok i forgive myself. i always thought the evidence of round barrows superimposed on earlier long barrows was cast iron proof of the chronology cos it never occurs the opposite way round. (But then again i am very drunk and probably shouldnt be posting anyway.) |
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PeteG
Age : 99
Joined : 03 Jan 2008
Posts : 1603
Location : near Avebury
| | Subject: Re: Avenue query . Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:39 am | |
| | megadread wrote: | | (But then again i am very drunk and probably shouldnt be posting anyway.) |
but then you wouldn't have saturday afternoons to say "did I really say that last night? Where's the delete button that Steve hid?
PeteG |
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PeteG
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