Avebury Earthworks...

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

I was reading this and wondered how large this smaller bank was..

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There are a couple of possibilities worth mentioning. Firstly, it may be that the massive earthwork, the remains of which we see today, replaced an earlier, much smaller, ditch and bank. Excavations have revealed the profile of a smaller bank buried under the final bank. Aubrey Burl ('Prehistoric Avebury: Second Edition') argues that this small bank was merely a guideline for the main earthwork. Secondly, stoneholes might indicate that the original plan was for a third setting, to the north of and inline with the southern circle and northern circle/horseshoe, but that this was abandoned in favour of the encircling bank and ditch.

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Any ideas...

Tony

Age : 44 Joined : 11 Apr 2008 Posts : 36 Location : Surrey

There is a theory that the banks could have been seating for an audience to what ever went on in the circle itself.
Could it be that they dug the ditch in two phases. The second to increase capacity.
I personally don't go with this theory as the bank is pretty steep today, even after erosion, to sit on with any comfort.

So maybe it is to screen the outside world from the circle.

I have just bought the Aubrey Burl book and have only just read the first chapter. I did read it 22years ago so it's a bit foggy in my mind now!

It is time some modern digs were done to answer these questions.
The 3rd circle may not have even been a circle. It could have been an arc of stones.

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

I don't go much on the idea it was for sitting or standing. The ditch represents a danger it anybody going near it.

http://www.avebury-web.co.uk/ditchbank.html

A post and wattle screen would have would have saved a lot of work.

But it's Burls belief that the small bank represents a guideline for the main works that interests me...Why did He come to that conclusion? The size of the bank would be a good indicator if He is right or not.

Using modern tools...

Dig a circle, one spade wide and one spit deep. pile up the soil to one side of the trench - That should mark the spot for many a year...

I

Age : 44 Joined : 11 Apr 2008 Posts : 36 Location : Surrey

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Age : 44 Joined : 11 Apr 2008 Posts : 36 Location : Surrey

A dig in July 1894 by Sir Henry Meux of Dauntsey House. Had a 2m wide cutting made through the south east bank.

He noticed a bank within a bank, a smaller rampart whose original grassy surface showed in the side of the cutting as a curved black band about 9cm thick a long way back from the lip of the ditch.

Later 20th century excavations have confirmed this.

The above is on page 65 of Prehistoric Avebury 2nd edition.

Just before this Aubery Burl mentions that antler picks were found 5.5m down, from the top of the bank. I assume that the inner bank was discovered at around that point it is not to clear. All records have been lost from the dig.

So there is proof for the south east bank but excavations need to be done in all quadrants to confirm that it went all the way round. It may not.

Burl's point that it was a guide to finished monument is a reasonable conclusion to come to.

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Subject: Re: Avebury Earthworks... Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:37 pm

Sooo, if they laid out a marker before they started digging then they weren't after a true circle.
The straight section in the south-west was deliberate?
PeteG

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

I'm thinking that..

As usual there are a few options.

We don't know if the first bank is circular or not. It may have been 'spot on'. but the follow up work was, 'more or less'.

Or it was deliberately, not a true circle.

Or it really was, not that important.

What does the bank and ditch represent?. To my eyes it looks like a 'cross section' of a tree trunk or maybe the downs and valleys. Others will 'see' something entirly different..

It may not be representable of anything - Purely functional and as such never mean to be circular...

More mysteries..

Tony

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

Subject: Re: Avebury Earthworks... Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:25 pm

what strikes me about the straight section is that it appears to line up with a section of the Avenue on the brow of the hill.
PeteG

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

Im not really into the 'everything had significance and had to be aligned on something' mentality.
Lots of sites have alignments that are almost spot on but not quite.
If they laid out a marker and intended it as a strict guide they could follow it if they wanted.
I tend to believe the real important thing was the actual labour itself.
Its been shown that they could do things really accurately if they wanted eg the recumbent circles of the north for one example.

Age : 44 Joined : 11 Apr 2008 Posts : 36 Location : Surrey

Guest

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

Couldn't the accuracy be achieved with a simple rope.
Surely they could achieve that. !

Guest

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Natural rope stretches big style..

But, I know I could do a far better job of creating a circle than they did...

No modern technology.

Three sticks for forming a straight line.

I personally could pace a 100mtr line with great accuracy... But...

Cut a length of wood to a given length. lay it down. Mark the end position. Move the wood up so that start position is at end position. continue until a given length. Repeat by moving the three stick by a few degrees to form a circle..

Time consuming but easy..

Tony

Guest

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

In many things and ideas relating to archaeology. I am at a disadvantage....

On this subject.... I am in my element.

I could and would beat their accuracy my a huge margin. No modern thinking or techniques used..

Therefore, there is aother reasonings involved, as to why it's (Avebury) henge is not truly circular..

You don't have to believe me. But, it is so.....

Tony

PS..

Consider the use of a Chain in surveying

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

I used to have a guy mark out sports pitches for me, even though he checked out the results, he was amazingly accurate just using his eye, often getting within inches of the true measurements.
I would love to try marking out a circle on the bumpy field next to my house but have no way of checking the result.

Guest

Joined : 15 Jan 2008 Posts : 850 Location : Surrey

Subject: Re: Avebury Earthworks... Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:21 pm

Avebury is built on a chalk hillock.
Maybe large chunks broke away when they were doigging out the ditch in the south at it lowest point.
Fractures in the underlying chalk or something?
Maybe from water run off....
If they can peg out Silbury they could of made Avebury more of a perfect circle if they wanted to.
PeteG

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

PeteG wrote: If they can peg out Silbury they could of made Avebury more of a perfect circle if they wanted to.

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Spot on in my opinion.

I just got a friend to ask a surveyor friend if he would test the accuracy of a circle if i marked it out to the dimensions of avebury. He agreed to do so when he has spare time. If i manage to arrange it i'll get the whole thing on tape.
Means im gonna have to sacrifice my ivy or honeysuckle though. Crying or Very sad

Guest

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

Dunno, havn't thought that far yet. Maybe the diameter of the centre of the ditch would be a good start being an 'inbetween' point.
Does anyone have a mean figure of the diameter.
If thats not available then either, i dont mind.
just wanna test how someone 'very' amateur with basic equipment would do.
Suggestions are welcome.

Edit: could i just say, no suggestions on the technique please, that would just remove my amateur tag. If i do this i want it to be basically an attempt from someone with no past knowledge of marking out circles whatsoever.

Guest

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

I have a field close by thats a good candidate, rather flat with a small rocky edge about 80 ft high on the boundary that should allow some kind of acceptable view for recording the project, i'll have to check out the size and hopefully it will fit.
For definition of the circle from any distance i was thinking about contacting someone who's known for making a product advertised as 'soft strong and very very long'. affraid

Subject: Re: Avebury Earthworks... Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:25 pm

If you could come back to Wiltshire, and make your circle in a cornfield - we'd get loads of really good aerial photos of it...

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

I'll have to do this on a really tight budget, well no budget really and in my spare time.

Edit:
If or when i do this would be great to have someone who has some experience of writing and publishing to come up with some way of putting all my notes into some kind of comprehensible overview of the project.
Cant think of anyone off hand though. Rolling Eyes

Subject: Re: Avebury Earthworks... Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:12 pm

I'll help!

I'm really interested in this experiment - I'll even come up to Lapland and help, if I can.
This summer I was hoping to make a full sized model of the southern inner circle (only 100 m across) with 8' x 4' sheets of shuttering ply for stones - but there was just no time to organise it. Maybe in the winter...

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

I'm supposed to be going up to Cumbria wild camping in september, maybe i could reluctantly cancel that and come to Avebury instead, would be much better to do this there anyway plus i do have another important reason to come back down.
Would be great to have you involved Steve but winter camping maybe a step too far. Brrrr.

Subject: Re: Avebury Earthworks... Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:27 pm

Subject: Re: Avebury Earthworks... Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:37 pm

Sorry to go off the subject Geoff, but I've been wanting to do the inner circle for a while. I strongly suspect that there's a weird acoustic effect inside the circle, which I've modelled, but crudely, and in sound only. Now I want to know if it works in real life!
The idea is to blag space in a stubble field off a farmer (easy round here) and blag 30 sheets of shuttering ply off a big construction company. They can have them back - I just want them to deliver to the site, and take them away afterwards. More timber is also needed to make braces to stand the plywood upright - a load of 8" x 4" sawn timber - but that can probably be blagged too. High winds could be a problem...

It's obviously not that difficult - it just involves some letter-writing and phone calls but I've not managed that yet.

Subject: Re: Avebury Earthworks... Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:40 pm

Steve,
ever thought of using round hay bales?
I've always wanted to roll a few along the beckhampton avenue to Adam & eve
to recreate the avenue,
Pete

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

Thats very kind Pete but i warn you i'm a terrible guest, i always feel i'm imposing and refuse hospitality to the point of starvation. My girlfriend hates cooking for me as i refuse to eat anything other than traditional heart attack food eg chips shephards pie, stew etc. I wont entertain restaurant food cos i hate dressings etc and it was only last year i accepted my first invitation to a wedding but insisted on having a simple chicken salad. The last time i stayed with friends i camped at the bottom of their garden and refused anything but the use of their toilet. Embarassed

Subject: Re: Avebury Earthworks... Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:46 pm

well thats ok with me.
We have plenty of chippies, kebab shops etc here.
I even have room next to my garden for off road camping which is fenced off from the wind.
I could run a cable out for a heater/computer if you wanted to sleep in the van.
PeteG

Subject: Re: Avebury Earthworks... Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:47 pm

Re-build the Beckhampton Avenue - another great idea!

I really think we should try these. If we can get a bit of media coverage, I'm sure people will lend us the stuff - big round straw bales is easy (1/3 the price of hay) and it's just down to someone's time with a JCB and trailer. We should ask around. If that field is empty for the winter again, it wouldn't be too difficult.

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

Just feeding me babs.

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

Well i'm up for it. Would mean me camping in your garden though pete or somewhere near by. Would love to see steves circle inside mine.
Pete would your plan be to follow the original course or recreate the avenue off our reconstruction, or even both.Or would you do this seperate from our project

Subject: Re: Avebury Earthworks... Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:15 am

I know exactly where the buried stones are at Beckhampton so I'd follow the same measurements across the field to the Trusloe end.
Surround the Cove with a circle.
Would look marvelous from a microlite.
As soon as the field is free I'll take a walk and measure out how many bales we need.

PeteG

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

Well if you or Steve can start to try and blag a field big enough and sort out a date preferably before the frosts arrive I'll get onto contacting people for the things i'll need. Im taking it your wanting to be a part of recreating the circles too.
Just thought its gonna be quite a bit harder for my experiment working over stubble instead of grassland. scratch

Subject: Re: Avebury Earthworks... Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:28 am

I think it best done in the same field.
Stubble shouldn't be too much of a problem should it?

I made a crop circle type formation out of bales in Devon about 15 years ago and it made the local news.
There was a farmer who built a mini Stonehenge out of flat bales but some idiot burnt it down.
PeteG

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

My philosophy is problems are there to be solved and the stubble is only a minor one requiring minimal alterations to the method i think i'm gonna use.
I really want to use really basic materials though.
The biggest problem will be defining the circle and the only thing i can come up with at the moment is with the aid of the puppy people. Nearly a mile of material is gonna be needed at least and with no funds, well......
Hopefully the company will feel they can gain something from this too.
I'm open to suggestions though.

Subject: Re: Avebury Earthworks... Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:42 am

why not cut a stack of Whithies 1ft long and put them in the ground one foot apart around the edge of the circle you are marking out?

PeteG

Joined : 12 Jul 2008 Posts : 321

Thats the plan but it aint gonna be visible enough without something visible wrapped around them, especially if captain Stevo is planning aerial shots of the site too.